My Financial Position - Mid 2021

Mid-year is the End-of-Finacial-Year (EOFY) for Australia. While I was doing some housekeeping for my finance and tax stuff, here's what I found.

I sold off all direct holdings of US shares recently. So bye bye to Berkshire and McDonalds. One of the reasons I bought USA shares is because of a "dream" back in Uni. That some day in the future, I can find some time to travel around USA. So I started by investing in USA shares, then sell some to fund my holidays when the time comes.

However, over the years, this dream is no longer exciting for me. Part of it is probably due to the decline in the attractiveness of USA. I have been there a few times for work trips. I got a feel of it (though mainly in California and Vegas) and don't think I would enjoy USA very much. Also partly due to issues like social unrest, increased racism, gun violence, etc. 

I am sure there are many beautiful sights, but I am just as sure there are other countries just as beautiful, that I haven't been to. 

I could have held on to my shares. But the way taxation is structured, I am technically no longer permitted to have direct holdings via an American brokerage because I am not a resident. I have to hold shares via overseas brokerage. Which means more admin costs for me, since I don't trade that much in US.

My estimated ROI for my US shares over the years is  just above 8% p.a. That is an impressive number, but since US indices have grown about 6% for the last 20 years, and 10% for the last 30 years. I think my portfolio is just slightly above average for US shares.

https://intl.assets.vgdynamic.info/intl/australia/documents/resources/index_chart_poster_2021.pdf

So, can I retire now ? 

Barely, I guess. My annual income from my investments is barely enough to sustain my bills (I think) but not enough to enjoy much or travel. Basically if I retire now, I can't do much. So there is no point.

At what point would I consider retirement ? If my investment income can sustain some hobbies and activities, should I ? Should I retire early ?

There is a whole lot of non-financial considerations here. Psychological well-being is one of the major factor that I see many retirees having to deal with. The sense of purpose, the sense of self-worth, too much time on hands, etc. Many have gone back to part-time employment, drive taxis/uber, etc.

I guess I always have the option of taking up some projects that are still work related. Drive Uber when I feel like interacting with strangers. Who knows. I think there might be lots of opportunities there.

Things I am thinking of doing still, before I retire. 

Move to another house : It is easier to buy an electric vehicle when I have my own house. My current townhouse is a little limited for charging station. However, current property prices are a little too high for my comfort, I think. Should I get a house and spend another 10-15 years aiming for high wages, or cruise easily now and retire early within 10 years ?

Enough money to dabble in share speculation : This can be considered my hobby then. Something to do when I have no job and plenty of time. Afterall, in the last 18 months of COVID and lockdowns, I think I have watched enough movies and TV shows. I might have completed half the movies in the world. Haha. I kid of course.

Negative Gearing - New concept to a lot of people

Not many countries have negative gearing. And it is a foreign concept to many that I have spoken to.

The general idea is that losses made from an investment can be used to reduce taxation from salary.
Why make losses, most people ask ?
Why would the government allow that ?

I guess, as with most investment around the world, you expect a short term loss, then a break even point, then a longer term gain.

Like when you buy a new car, the first couple of years, depreciation is the highest. You make the most losses. Though only a small percentage of cars can be considered investments. Not a good analogy.

Say  Shares. When you buy shares, you make a loss because of frictional costs (trading costs, fees, etc). And then you have to wait for the share price to rise, or wait for dividend, before you break even and then make profits later on as prices go higher than inflation. Now imagine if you are borrowing money to buy shares. The initial "loss" will be higher.

When  you buy a property, it is also usually with mortgage. How much do you need the property to rise before you can sell it for a profit ? Think about the fees, stamp duties, interest payments, etc.
People are betting on the fact that capital growth of the property in time exceeds the interest and inflation rates and it becomes a profit in future.

Negative gearing allows investors to use the losses in the first few years to offset their income (even if it is from employment). Most countries allow the losses to offset FUTURE profits (from capital gains tax, or from future rental profits) but countries allowing negative gearing lets you offset those losses NOW.

In Australia, negative gearing is not just for properties, you can also use negative gearing on shares, as far as I know.

Is it for me ?

I am not a financial advisor, so don't take my words with much weight.

Negative gearing is probably useful if you have other income to offset against, so as to reduce taxation.
Maybe a steady employment income.

But if your income is not stable, it may not be worthwhile.

Updates - Mid 2013 - 5 years on...

I guess I owe all of you some updates over the last 3 years.

 Work 

Work has been largely the same. Some restructuring in the company, some retrenchments,some people leaving. But largely business as usual.

My territory has changed and it is a shame I am not going to Perth anymore. However, I get to travel to Brisbane and New Zealand now. Hope to be able to enjoy that.

Still been able to travel around regional areas in NSW and ACT. Visiting sleepy country towns and all. Always is nice to drive around a bit and get out of the office.

Also been trying to do side-lines... See how it goes.


Life

I have bought my own 3 bedroom townhouse, in a nice suburban complex. Nice and friendly neighbours with lots of get-together and parties.

More friends and more events and things to do on the weekends - Birthday parties, catch up sessions, etc.

Haven't been going to the beach a lot in the last year. Been staying home more. Not sure why, maybe just being lazy.



Car

Sold my old car (Ford Focus) and bought a new one (Hyundai ix35) about 3 years ago. I think my previous LS experience took place when I already have my new car.

Haven't done any 4WD or much off road with it though.

I am now sitting in the service centre while my car is being serviced. Doing my work, enjoying free coffee and blogging.. It is a Friday after all..



To Do List

In the short future, looking at getting a better paid job. Getting an investment property. Though in no particular order. Maybe also starting a little side business of some sort.

But I guess, most of the plans is to build a financially secure future and get to enjoy life a little more.

Maybe pick up more sporting activities.

Long awaited...

Long awaited updates for you all... :)

Let's see what has happened in the last few months...

My work is getting busier with more projects and and stuff.. I am travelling to Perth monthly, which is nice for me meeting my friends and all, and good for my frequent flyer points. Heh heh.

The weather has turned cold here. Winter started earlier it seems. Luckily, we do not get that much rainfall and flood like in parts of Queensland.

And I have bought a new 3-bedroom, 194sqm townhouse to live in. With that, I got $24k of government grant (and free stamp duty worth $16k) and I only pay $200 per month more than my previous rental (of a 2-bedroom towhouse).

I have also gotten $900 of the stimulus package from the government without needing to do anything. No need to top up CPF, or login to register, etc. They just send put the money into my bank account.

But of course, with the new house and all, more money has been spent on furniture, deocorations, etc. I sure helped the economy.. haha..

A couple of close friends came to stay for a week, and we went out to enjoy Hunter Valley and Blue Mountains. And I also got to visit Taronga Zoo as well. It's a nice place, but I personally think that the Singapore Zoo is still slightly better.

Hmmm.. What else do you wanna know ?

Maybe I can make this more interactive (no, not trying to emulate twitter) and maybe I'll have more things to write about.. and you'll have more articles to read.

More on Medical and Insurance

I have recently gotten myself Private Health Insurance (PHI). I have gotten hospital and extras cover.

The reason is mainly 2 folds - (a) Reduce taxation (b) Get extras that cover part of my dental expenses.

First of all, I am above an income bracket where I will have an additional 1% tax on my income to suppliment the govt's free Medicare if I do not have PHI.

Furthermore, govt will subsidise 30% of the PHI premium. Well, one can say that in most sense, this doesn't make much difference as almost everyone is entitled to get that 30% discount. Thus they are calculated into the premiums already. 

The most important part is, I have additional benefits above Medicare. Now Medicare already covers all doctor's fees (Read my previous encounter) and that's true even for hospital. But for some operations, especially elective, public healthcare doesn't cover for them, or one had to wait in a waiting list for a long time to get it free. 

With PHI, I am entitled to be treated as private patient in public hospital for everything and my PHI will cover the gap (additional fees). That means I can choose my specialist, get faster attention (for non-emergency treatment), stay in better wards, etc.

Also, with PHI, for some operations (depending on level of cover), I can choose a private hospital and choose a doctor and still have everything covered - 100%, less the excess amount. And the excess is capped per year.

Second type of cover included is what we called 'extras'. That is something above the normal hospital cover. It include things like dental, optical (glasses, contacts, etc), massages, therapies, etc.

Now, as everyone knows, dental expenses are higher in Australia compared to Singapore, I estimate at least 50% more expensive. For example, filling for a large tooth here (they measure by type of filling and number of surfaces the fillilng covers) cost me about $150, whereas I can get it filled in my neighbourhood dental clinic back in Singapore for about $70-80.

I bought the basic level of cover, which means I am entitled to claim 65% of my dental expenses, limited to $500 per calendar year. I am also entitled to claim up to $200 for glasses prescription, up to $300 or so for various types of massages (foot reflexology, oil massage, etc, by licensed practitioners), $300 or so for therapies (aromatherapy, physiotherapies, etc, again must be by licensed practitioners) every calendar year. 

My premium for the extra's portion is about $200+ per year. I can claim back about $500 per year - its already an advantage to me. Also, I can claim 100% of 2 x dental cleaning and scaling per year, and 100% of 1 x flouride treatment per year. 

Since I have bad dental history and weak teeth, I would have to use the dental services in Australia sooner or later. Based on history, I spend a few hundred buck a year anyway, back in Singapore. Here, with the claims, my out-of-pocket and premiums, it works out to be slightly more per year (about 30% more) but I can now regularly visit the dentist to repair and also, hopefully, to prevent more problems.

Not too bad a deal, especially when I need to get PHI anyway to save on tax. The amount I save on tax is more than my premiums in the first place !

In future, I can increase my cover, PHI will even include heart operations, joint replacements, and up to 95% of my expenses on dental, etc (and the cap per year will increase too, not just $500).

So in summary, with the govt's Medicare and my PHI, I am covered for all medical expenses (I pay only $500 excess) if I am involved in accident, or develop any cyst or tumour, appendicitis, requires minor eye surgery, or any joint reconstructive surgey, or even to repair a slipped disc.

Dark...

The days are short. This is what the sky looks like just before 5pm :



I usually leave like 10 or 15 mins after 5, and it is dark.

And another scary realization - mortgage rates here are just too high for me to buy a house. On the flip side, the savings interest rates are high too, which I am enjoying.

Now if only I can have low interest rates from nice lenders in Singapore... Anyone ? :)

Total Cost of Car Ownership

Ok. I have done the sums.

Period of Ownership : August 2004 to March 2008 (3 years and 8 months)

Total Payment made for car loan : $47,585.80
Total Accessories : $1,452.65
Total Cash Card (mostly Parking and some ERP) : $1,590
Total Insurance : $3,992.25
Total Maintenance : $3,474.09
Total Parking (Home & Office & Parking Coupons) : $7,449.40
Total Petrol : $12,994.50
Total Road Tax : $3,348.50
Total Others : $1,292.37

Grand Total : $83,179.56

Expected Refunds (Insurance, Season Parking, etc) : $400

Total cost $82,779.56
Average Expenditure Per Month (44 Months in Total) = $1,881.35
Average Cost Per Year = $22,576.24

Tax and Tax Cuts

Ok. Found this circulating the Internet :

Sometimes politicians, journalists and the liberal left exclaim; "It's just a tax cut for the rich!" and it is just accepted to be fact. But what does that really mean? Just in case you are not completely clear on this issue, I hope the following will help. Please read it carefully. Let's put tax cuts in terms everyone can understand.

Suppose that every day, ten men go out for dinner and the bill for all ten comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this:

a.. The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.
b.. The fifth would pay $1.
c.. The sixth would pay $3.
d.. The seventh would pay $7.
e.. The eighth would pay $12.
f.. The ninth would pay $18.
g.. The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.

So, that's what they decided to do. The ten men ate dinner in the restaurant every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve. "Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily meal by $20." Dinner for the ten now cost just $80. The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes, so the first four men were unaffected. The first four would still eat for free. But what about the other six men - the paying customers? How could they divide the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his 'fair share?'

They realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being paid to eat their meal. So, the restaurant owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay. And so:

The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings).

a.. The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33% savings).
b.. The seventh now paid $5 instead of $7 (28% savings).
c.. The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings).
d.. The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings).
e.. The tenth (the richest) now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings).

Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to eat for free. But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings. "I only got a dollar out of the $20," declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man," but he got $10!" "Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man. "I only saved a dollar, too. It's unfair that he got ten times more than me!" "That's true!!" shouted the seventh man. "Why should he get $10 back when I got only two? The wealthy get all the breaks!" "Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison. "We didn't get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!" The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.

The next night the tenth man didn't show up for dinner, so the nine sat down and ate without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something very important. They didn't have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!

And that, boys and girls, journalists and college professors, is how our tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore. In fact, they might start eating overseas where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.

Interesting. And I guess that is probably the truth.

The question I always ask myself is, which man am I ?

And the question that will haunt me, at least for the next few years is :whether I will be better off (financially,) in Singapore or in Australia.

Obviously it has to be balanced by other non-financial aspects of life. But I guess being in Singapore for so long, money is all I can think about right now.. :)

Now I know where the money came from...

Oh, I almost wanted to rejoice on the additional 1% I am going to get from my CPF accounts.
1% more, for the first 20k in my Ordinary Account.
1% more, for my Special Account & Medisave Account. I figure up to first 40k, since I already have 20k in my OA.

Then I read that instead of having a fixed 4% interest rate for SA and MA as it is right now. It will be "re-pegged to an appropriate long-term bond rate".

According to a news report :
Private sector economists said the rates could be pegged to government-issued bonds.

"If we peg it to a SGS bond, it will definitely be below the target 4 percent rate. Our thoughts are that, they might be looking at a bond issued by say, Temasek, which has typically in previous years averaged returns more than 4 percent. So we can probably enjoy higher returns in that way," said Alvin Liew, economist at UOB Treasury Research.

So, if the govt decides to peg to SGS bond, I will not be getting the 5% in my SA & MA as I thought. It will be lower...


Oh and last night, the news came out. ERP rates increased. More ERP Gantries.

Damn, I knew there isn't going to be free money....

Again, I should practise what I preach...

My usual investment strategy... If you are happy with a product or service, check the company that produces it. Might be a good investment opportunity.

Remember last year, I bought a new toy ? (Hint)

Well, I should have taken my own advise. Missed an opportunity :



I would have a neat 90% growth if I had bought it in August/September 2006.

Maybe I should study the company more to see if it is still worth investing...

Interesting moments...

Yesterday evening, I went to my car dealer's launch of Chevrolet Captiva in Ubi.
Looks nice... like what I wanted before... But the pricing is ooooooo.... :)

Didn't get a chance to take any photographs as I didn't have a chance to be with the beauty alone. Many people around. Probably will go for a test drive later when the buzz has died down a little.

*~*~*~*~*

On another note, someone pointed out to me that I should have gone into the civil service instead of the private sector. With my "three-leg" capabilities, I can easily have gotten the kind of pay I am getting now (without all the "hard work") years ago. Furthermore, I would have a much higher chance to get into the SR9 pay scale. Wow.

I think private sector is definitely much more difficult.

http://www.yawningbread.org/arch_2007/yax-726.htm

I like these 3 parts :

There are 24 private sector individuals whose income, by definition, would be higher than the 25th person used to obtain MR4. But the Singapore government has 15 ministries. This means about 15 ministers and another 15 permanent secretaries. Not to mention Supreme Court justices and a few others whose salaries are also pegged to MR4 or higher. That makes perhaps 40 people. That means there are more people in the public sector with that kind of income than in the private sector.

and

Taking the age-32 cohort alone, we will see something like this pattern, where there are 15 individuals in the private sector earning SR9 or more, and perhaps 8 in the public sector earning SR9 or more.

The ratio's not so bad compared to the MR4 level. However, whether it is excessive for the public service to be responsible for 1 in 3 top earners aged 32 can still be debated.

and

The question we should be asking is why is SR9 unchanged while MR4 has gone so far up? What kind of society is this where even those 3 or 4 rungs from the top (the SR9 group in the public and private sectors) have stagnating incomes, while those at the summit of summits fly off the chart?

*~*~*~*~*

Looking back, it really was silly of me to put my ideals above money...

Bet with a Friend - Conclusion

THE BET is finally concluded.

I have won a free McDonald's meal.. Muahahahaha.. *evil*

Ok lah.. won by technicalities of "timing" of the market. Another few weeks more, and I would have lost. But then, it is he who called the timing (though it was me who insisted on a timeline. Afterall, if we were to dabble in speculating stocks, timing and price limits are the keys.)

So moral of the story ? Do not try to time the market.
For those who can, all the best and wish you many many earnings.

Oh well, just my school of thoughts. May not be the best.

Bet with a Friend - Part 3

My friend almost won his McDonald's meal from me.

21-Feb-05
Open : 1.20
High : 1.22
Low : 1.17
Close : 1.20


Whew.. haha..

Bet with a Friend - Part 2

Halfway through the timeline of the bet.

Today, closing for Chartered is 1.12.
Well, another 0.12 increase anytime from now till 31st May 2005, my friend would have won.

I am keeping my fingers crossed...

Insurance is fraud !!!!

Not going to link anymore. So you just have to take my word for it :

Jan 3, 2005
Hit by drink driver? Claim on own policy



I REFER to the letter, 'Need to re-examine role of insurance here' (ST, Dec 24), by Mr Chan Chin Keong. Mr Chan expressed disappointment and frustration over his inability to recover the financial loss of his car after being struck by a drink driver.

Mr Chan is likely to have been better off had he claimed against his own insurer for loss or damage to his car.

We would encourage any car owner under similar circumstances to claim on his own policy if he is insured on comprehensive cover.

It is illegal in Singapore to drive a car under the influence of alcohol. It is against public interest for insurers to insure such risks. All policies will carry a blanket policy exclusion for such risks.

The insurer of the drink driver would have denied policy liability. It is for the drink driver to bear responsibility for all damage caused to his own vehicle as well as for liability for death and bodily injury caused to third parties.

Unfortunately, Mr Chan was on his own when he decided to pursue his claim for damage to his car and loss of use against the drink driver directly.

In Singapore, it is compulsory for all cars to have insurance in force covering third-party liability for death and bodily injury arising out of the use of the car. That the driver is in breach of a policy exclusion will not excuse the insurer from its statutory obligation to compensate the third party for such claims.

Other than the above, there is no legal requirement for the car owner to insure against loss or damage to the car and other liabilities for damage to third party property.

Wu Siong Yen

Executive Director

General Insurance Association of Singapore

*~*~*~*~*

Wow. Legal-speak is really confusing.

First it is : "It is for the drink driver to bear responsibility for all damage caused to his own vehicle as well as for liability for death and bodily injury caused to third parties."

Then it is : "That the driver is in breach of a policy exclusion will not excuse the insurer from its statutory obligation to compensate the third party for such claims."

Isn't it contradicting ? So if someone drunk hit me, can I claim or not ? How to claim for injury when the guy has no money ?

Wait.. no money how to drive in Singapore ?
Of course can lah.. Credit Card lah !

Still... I just have to pray that I am not so unlucky lor....

I am a poor man !

(This post is removed on request - 19 June 2008)

I actually quoted a news article and made some comments...

Someone emailed me all of a sudden to remove this post because of some painful memories. Like 4 years after I posted this.

It actaully took me a while to realize the "spam" was referring to this old post...

Not that I felt the request was in anyway right..

I was tempted to tell the person(s) to bugger off and not read my blog anyway. Not like I put my blog in his/her/their face and forced him/her/them to read it...

But hey, this post isn't a crucial 'spirit' of my personality, so no harm to me either. That is usually my style, for things that I feel can be "right" or "wrong".. If it doesn't matter much to me, hope it benefits someone else I guess.

And it is not like I have a lot of readers or something..

I think no one, except the person(s) who emailed me, would even notice this post is gone...

And my advise to the person(s) reading this :

Life is made up of good and bad, happiness and sadness. Remembering a loved one, is about remembering everything, not just the good.

Trying not to be reminded of the painful things, is like trying to forget a part of the one we loved...

Sometimes, it might seem easier to try to forget, but I think that is just the easy way out...

But whatever the situation is, I wish all of you well.




I only left this last portion as a reminder to myself what my post actually was about :


Me - 31 years old - <$5k+
... if someone tried to cheat my money, that is.

From the above statistics, the younger, the richer...
Time to change my target age.

What is a rat race ?

I have an incomplete understand of the term "Rat Race". I always thought it means in the process of working to earn money. And that the only way out is to be financially independent.

Encountered 2 of my colleagues using this term recently, and so, being my usual self, I checked it out in my favourite Oxford dictionary :

rat race

• noun informal a way of life in which people are caught up in a fiercely competitive struggle for wealth or power.

As long as you are contended with your job and don't aim for too much, you can still be working at a day job, earning a decent day's pay, not be financially independent, but still free from the rat race.

Damn, with this new definition, I am still in a rat race, though not for the power.

Hmm.. Ok.. Everyday I find my level of knowledge getting worse.. Time for me not to be so opinionated and verify my facts. Ha Ha

Scary Financial Stuff

Reading today's papers. Investment/money section, where advisors answer readers' questions. Always have some people who do things that scare the shit out of me :

Dec 5, 2004
She shopped till she dropped...under a pile of debt

Q A FEW years ago, I was suffering from depression and I went on a shopping spree every day. Soon my banks came after me. A few months later, I managed to pay back some money. Then I began paying the minimum required every month.

I got married three years ago and stopped working. Some time later, my husband was not able to continue paying the minimum on my debt.

I owed two banks about $22,000 plus interest and legal fees. One of the banks served me with a statutory demand but did not sue me after the deadline had passed.

The other bank seized some of my personal effects for auction a few months ago and I've not heard from them since. Is there a time period for the bank to sue?

I'm thinking of working again. Do I have to inform the prospective employer about my debts?

If I get a job and choose not to pay the banks, can they freeze my bank account?

I'm now separated and have two children to support so I can't afford to pay the bank even if I'm working.


How do people spend money like that without thinking of how to repay ? I mean, doesn't it scares them that they have no savings for old age ? It sure scares the hell out of me, not having enough money to retire and have to pick rubbish to sell.


*~*~*~*~*

Q MY BACHELOR cousin died, leaving behind a Housing Board flat. He has no other assets except for a few hundred dollars in a bank. He owed several credit card companies almost $100,000. My uncle is not working, thus he is using legal aid to apply for the letters of administration.

Now, the banks have lodged a caveat against his application. What can my uncle do?

He definitely cannot pay off the debt. Should he declare himself a bankrupt to solve this problem?


Wow. How the heck do you choke up $100k of debt ? Even all my credit limits added together cannot get half of that !

I know, many things in this world, I will never get to understand. This is just one of them.

Bet with a Friend

Had a bet with a friend. And I am just documenting this.
Today, Chartered stock price is $1.07.

My friend's bet is, from now to 31st May 2004, Chartered stock price will reach $1.24.
The value of the bet is simply a McDonald's Extra Value Meal.

My bet is that it will NOT rise so much in that time.

Platinum Cards

Overheard at a local restaurant. 2 young (no more than 30 I would guess), hip looking guys were trying to get attention of a waitress, who was obviously busy. After the not-so-patient waitress took their orders and walked to the kitchen, one of the guy commented to his friend, "Wah, why, think I cannot afford ah ? I got Black Gold card you know..."

Very tempted to get my bunch of friends around to all put our "Black Gold" cards on the table and say "Why ? Black Gold card , who don't have ?"

Alas, decency in me always prevail. One day, I swear, one day I will let my inner devil rule.

Oh, and recently I received an invitation from a prestigious, not-so-local bank to apply for a Platinum card. Should I feel honoured that I have hit an income level that attracts attention, or should I feel down that at this income level, I still do not feel very rich...

Or was I plainly mistaken, and that the Platinum card invitation is , in my own words, "who don't have ?"